Interviews

A Muslim thinker, received by the Pope at the Vatican. Why are interreligious or intercultural exchanges such a rare occurrence?

The responsibility lies both with the North and the South, with the Muslim and the Western world. The Western world believes that its model is the only valid one and the Muslim world withdraws into itself in the face of what it considers an external aggression. Faced with this, the only other alternative possible is dialogue. Dialogue means living together and refusing to dialogue brings confrontation. Individuals dialogue within their neighbourhoods, in cities, in universities... Dialogue is established by Christians, Muslims and Jews, although this rarely comes to light. It needs to be highlighted, because every day people discover that they can’t exist alone, that they need others.

As you yourself have said, we have gone from “proletarians of the world unite” to “people of the world, care for each other”. Capitalism used to be the great evil. What is it now?

These days evil is the rejection of other people’s right to a different opinion. People say: either you are like me, or I will hate you. The great evil is intolerance, the lack of morals, of ethics in relationships between peoples. You can’t crush people with commerce; you can’t prevent people from moving around just because they are different; you can’t use violence against people because they aren’t like us. It’s a very deep-seated evil. There are extremists and fanatics all over the place. They are a minority, but they prevent the majority from living peaceful lives. But more and more people around the world are aware that we need to respect other people’s right to be different.

“We can’t possibly progress without someone else looking at us”. That’s another thing you said.

That’s right. I need other people. If I am to correct my mistakes, someone else looking at me will help me understand myself and produce ideas and make progress. I progress in relation to other people. Discussion helps me see the light.

The Alliance of Civilisations against the clash of civilisations. Some might say that you are very optimistic, given what is happening in the world...

The Alliance of Civilisations is a natural thing. There are no isolated civilisations, only open ones. If one is closed, it stops being a civilisation. So, the Alliance of Civilisations is the shared future, a future of exchanges. Civilisations can’t thrive without sharing and exchanging. Today things are even more serious: there are no modern civilisations. There are ancient traditions, ancient civilisations, but Humanity has not yet learned how to create a universal civilisation which is common to all. This forces us to start a dialogue. The Alliance has not been created for everyone to stick to their personal views: it was created to make a new civilisation for everyone.

Is that possible?

We live in a single, global village, we are in the same boat. This problem is a problem for everyone. There are no borders to pollution or injustice. We are all facing the same situations, we are all inter-dependent. In the face of common problems, we need common solutions, and fast.

Will the Union for the Mediterranean work?

As long as the Palestinian people are suffering under the yoke of injustice, there will never be a Union for the Mediterranean. Israeli colonisation needs to stop for the violence to stop. People in the west often refer to blind reaction. That is, they refer to the effects but they forget the causes of the conflict. They say to the militants in Gaza “stop launching rockets”, but these people are subjugated, isolated from the world, colonised, oppressed, pushed to the point of desperation, so what else can they do? They are hungry, they live in a concentration camp, subjected to apartheid: they have no alternative! There can be no justification for blind violence, it is inadmissible, but we need to seek out the causes. The international community needs to impose conditions for there to be two sovereign states, side by side. All the people in the region, Israelis and Palestinians, have a right to peace and safety. What we have now is a great injustice.

Do you think Israel has a right to exist, or do you accept its existence as a consummate fact?

In 2002, the 22 states in the Arab League said “we recognise Israel’s existence and agree to establish normal diplomatic relations providing it returns the territory it conquered in 1967”. The UN split Palestine in two in 1948 but Israel took Palestine’s share and is still colonising land. Israel has a right to exist, but the Arabs refuse to live next door to a colonising state which considers itself to be above the law. And that’s just not possible. The problem is not the Palestinians, but Israel, which forces people to act blindly and violently.

You have said that Sionist policy is part of the West’s strategy to control the Middle East.

Many Jewish intellectuals think that Sionism is a kind of anti-Judaism and anti-humanism, that it is partly a nationalistic ideology which supports colonisation. We can see that the colonisation and oppression of the Palestinian people is still occurring. Everyone is aware of the insufficiencies and the contradictions of the Arab world, but the Arab position has been clear since 2002: a return to normal relations and recognition in exchange for the land colonised in 1967. There is no alternative to diplomacy. But so far Israel has rejected the idea. It has been applying the philosophy of “might is right”.

What influence can the new media have on the future of non-democratic Muslim countries?

They represent an opportunity. Debating issues leads to solutions. These days, people and countries, particularly Arab ones, are being attacked: Palestine, Irak... Statistically, Muslims are the main victims. How many Muslims have fallen to the extremists’ bombs? And how many Westerners? There’s no comparison! The Muslims are the main victims. That’s the proof that extremism is anti-Islam! These days, we can’t find solutions without negotiation, without discussion and without the support of international public opinion, thanks to the media.

Islam is often associated with fanaticism and violence.

Ever since the Berlin wall came down, the predominant system has been to look for a new enemy. Bush did, and he and his cohorts encouraged extremist views, the instrumentalisation of religion for political ends, to create a scarecrow which would make people forget about the real problems of colonisation and unlawful actions. All extremist groups which use violence feed this propaganda. Extremism is the result of the contradictions of our times. Most Muslims are open-minded and refuse to mix politics with religion. They believe that the problems are only political ones.

And what does the West do?

Many Westerners are aware of the situation and do not confuse violence with Islam, in the same way that not all Muslims are blind and don’t identify the West with being the aggressors. We need to work to get most Westerners and most of the people in the Muslim world to care for each other and work together to solve the world’s problems in a peaceful manner.

What can the masters degree course that you lead in the UOC contribute?

The Masters course was created to spread certain target knowledge to put an end to ignorance and confusion and to invent new values for a better world.

Isn’t this idea a little utopian?

Science has an obligation to push beyond all human limitations. Science and knowledge must accept this responsibility, just like politicians and the media. It is both a collective and an individual responsibility. In the West, some people say that it’s a Muslim problem and that the Muslims need to change. Some Muslims say that the West is the problem and it is the West which needs to change. We all need to change! We need to change to learn to live together on the basis of law and diplomacy, not on the basis of force.

Tell me about the faculty who are taking part in the Masters degree course.

Each one is the leading specialist anywhere around the Mediterranean in their area. We have decided to go with diversity, because there is no single way of thinking. At the same time, there is coherence and unity in the fact that science is the only ideology. We need debate, discussion, comparison, perspective to be able to transmit knowledge to reach meeting points. The key word is interpretation. We need to help the peoples of the north and south to interpret, so that they aren’t swayed by everything they see and hear. They need to learn to form their own opinion, to make their own judgments. That is what the science of knowledge does. It is not a matter of imposing a point of view. Truth is a perspective and no-one has a monopoly over it. An open university as evinced by the UOC offers an exceptional opportunity for creation and constructive criticism because there is a method for the whole group, without making a statement or denigrating anyone or anything. Constructive criticism and respect for others’ differences.

Democracy and progress as inseparable values?

Yes, democracy and conditions favourable for it to develop. No-one has an ideal model. Democracy is a whole. It is what is good, what is fair, not only being able to hold free elections. It is a matter of putting an end to economic violence, to social violence, to the violence of knowledge which attempts to dominate. Democracy is a concept without a concept, something which belongs to people everywhere. It is not the invention of a single culture, a single religion or a single civilisation. It belongs to the whole of Humanity.

So you still have faith in the future of Humanity.

Yes. The opportunity for opening a horizon which appeared closed comes when times are hard. That’s the time for increased awareness. There is no other alternative. The only solution is for us to live together. We need to accept each other, with all our differences, providing we can agree on certain common values.

What does Barak Obama’s victory in the United States represent?

Obama represents an exceptional opportunity for redirecting our focus to the heart of the problems. Rejecting debate and discussion has led to a failure of unilateral politics. Obama is the chance to return to multilateralism instead of “might is right”.